QC and SG accountability (11/10/19)
Following up from Winnie's sharing about one of her former students receiving the Lord but being forbidden to be baptized by her parents, we asked whether it was right for a new believer to "obey God rather than men" (Ac 5:29) and to make a stand for Christ, even at the cost of losing family relationships. After all, this was Jesus' comment: " “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn“‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -
a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household. (Mt 10:34-36). We said that the intent of not pushing immediately for baptism (or church attendance) should not be fear, but the desire to make our faith winsome to parents so that they too would come to see the goodness of the gospel. There would also be an extended opportunity for younger believers to grow in maturity and to witness to their family.
David asked why Paul in Acts 16:1-3 circumcised Timothy, when he was so against circumcision In Galatians 5. In the latter, Paul was making a stand for the gospel, in that he would never let following the Mosaic law be a condition for salvation. In the former, he did it "because of the Jews who lived in that area, for they all knew that [Timothy's] father was a Greek. He did it for the sake of the Jews he was going to minister to in the synagogues. This exemplified his ministry philosophy in 1 Cor 9:19-22 -becoming like a target group in order to win that group. This may have opened him to the charge of inconsistency and to the possibility that others would be stumbled, but he evidently thought it worth his while. Where do we draw the line in how far we should go to reach out to people? Should we, for example, become gay to win gays? It is helpful to note that Paul does not say, "to sinners, I became as a sinner". There are morally neutral activities which may stumble others (e.g. smoking, tattooing) and clear sins we should avoid. We have previously given Paul's 4 principles of guidance here.
We spoke about infant baptism (paedobaptism) and noted that some traditions (like we Methodists) practice this, whereas others (e.g. Baptists) practice believer's baptism. Baptism is the new covenant sign of inclusion into God's people, corresponding to circumcision as the sign for old covenant believers. Circumcision is given to those too young to have faith (so the argument goes), so infant baptism is consistent with this pattern. In reply, it is pointed out that the OT people of God were defined by their ethnicity, whereas the NT people of God are defined by their faith. In practice, traditions that practice paedobaptism will have some means (like the preparatory roll for Methodists) to oversee the upbringing of those baptised as infants, so that when they are admitted to membership in a local congregation they will first profess personal faith in Christ.
We also asked when the Holy Spirit indwelt the babies baptised. The call by Peter in his Pentecost sermon (“Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:38) is not a chronological sequence, or it would mean that reception of the Spirit would not occur without water baptism. I think that John 3 is more instructive. In verses 3 and 5 Jesus sets out the sequence:
unless one is born again = unless one is born of water and the Spirit
he cannot see the kingdom of God = he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
This leads to the idea that "regeneration precedes faith", which is to say that as people "dead in trespasses and sins" (Eph 2:1) we must first be made alive spiritually (born again) by a sovereign work of God in order to believe. This is in contrast to the idea that we have faith/belief first, leading to our being born again and the Spirit's indwelling. It seems to me that the answer to the question, "When do we receive the Spirit?" is "when the Spirit chooses to come". i.e. He comes sovereignly, not in response to our faith, but in order to create saving faith. "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” (Jn 3:8)
Today we celebrated Amelia and my birthday! (a week late). We also bid farewell to Josh and Amelia, who are transferring to Eunice and Alvin's cell.
a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household. (Mt 10:34-36). We said that the intent of not pushing immediately for baptism (or church attendance) should not be fear, but the desire to make our faith winsome to parents so that they too would come to see the goodness of the gospel. There would also be an extended opportunity for younger believers to grow in maturity and to witness to their family.
David asked why Paul in Acts 16:1-3 circumcised Timothy, when he was so against circumcision In Galatians 5. In the latter, Paul was making a stand for the gospel, in that he would never let following the Mosaic law be a condition for salvation. In the former, he did it "because of the Jews who lived in that area, for they all knew that [Timothy's] father was a Greek. He did it for the sake of the Jews he was going to minister to in the synagogues. This exemplified his ministry philosophy in 1 Cor 9:19-22 -becoming like a target group in order to win that group. This may have opened him to the charge of inconsistency and to the possibility that others would be stumbled, but he evidently thought it worth his while. Where do we draw the line in how far we should go to reach out to people? Should we, for example, become gay to win gays? It is helpful to note that Paul does not say, "to sinners, I became as a sinner". There are morally neutral activities which may stumble others (e.g. smoking, tattooing) and clear sins we should avoid. We have previously given Paul's 4 principles of guidance here.
We spoke about infant baptism (paedobaptism) and noted that some traditions (like we Methodists) practice this, whereas others (e.g. Baptists) practice believer's baptism. Baptism is the new covenant sign of inclusion into God's people, corresponding to circumcision as the sign for old covenant believers. Circumcision is given to those too young to have faith (so the argument goes), so infant baptism is consistent with this pattern. In reply, it is pointed out that the OT people of God were defined by their ethnicity, whereas the NT people of God are defined by their faith. In practice, traditions that practice paedobaptism will have some means (like the preparatory roll for Methodists) to oversee the upbringing of those baptised as infants, so that when they are admitted to membership in a local congregation they will first profess personal faith in Christ.
We also asked when the Holy Spirit indwelt the babies baptised. The call by Peter in his Pentecost sermon (“Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:38) is not a chronological sequence, or it would mean that reception of the Spirit would not occur without water baptism. I think that John 3 is more instructive. In verses 3 and 5 Jesus sets out the sequence:
unless one is born again = unless one is born of water and the Spirit
he cannot see the kingdom of God = he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
This leads to the idea that "regeneration precedes faith", which is to say that as people "dead in trespasses and sins" (Eph 2:1) we must first be made alive spiritually (born again) by a sovereign work of God in order to believe. This is in contrast to the idea that we have faith/belief first, leading to our being born again and the Spirit's indwelling. It seems to me that the answer to the question, "When do we receive the Spirit?" is "when the Spirit chooses to come". i.e. He comes sovereignly, not in response to our faith, but in order to create saving faith. "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” (Jn 3:8)
Today we celebrated Amelia and my birthday! (a week late). We also bid farewell to Josh and Amelia, who are transferring to Eunice and Alvin's cell.
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