QC session 31/5/20
I had encouraged us to consider what we heard in the sermon on 24/5/20: "Love the sinner, but hate the sin". This idea is quite commonly heard in public discourse. Christians use it, for instance, in speaking about homosexuality. But the truth of this statement needs some qualification. We mentioned in our discussion that the context of the use of the phrase is important.
It has been noted that if we emphasize on "loving sinners" there is a risk of viewing people with a morally superior attitude (they are "sinners" defined by their sin). So those who hold this view would say that we are never commanded to "love sinners" in the Bible and that this way of viewing people as objects of our love is inappropriate. It has also been noted that in practice it is not easy to love people while hating their sin. I think these observations are not incorrect, but that they are not fundamental considerations in approaching this idea.
Certainly the phrase may seem to separate the sin from the sinner so much that the latter escapes responsibility. We also mentioned Jesus's words about not 'judging' (Mt 7:1). This certainly does not mean that we must not make moral judgements (c.f. v.6), but it means that we do not judge in a condemning fashion, with a hard, ungenerous heart (v.2) and always with a great sensitivity to our own great sinfulness (v.3-5).
"Love the sinner, but hate the sin". does express Scriptural truth insofar as we know that God does love sinners (Ro 5:8) and commands us even to love our enemies (Mt 5:43). There is no doubt that God also hates sin and asks us to hate sin (especially our own). The issue is that we have to consider how God loves sinners and how He asks us to love them. It stands to reason that we should love sinners the way God loves them.
In his little gem of his free ebook here Don Carson helps us to see that God's love is not the same for everyone. So in one sense, God indeed loves sinners, provides for them as a good Creator (Mt 5:45) and desires that they be saved (1 Ti 2:4, 2 Pe 3:9, Ez 18:23, Mt 23:37). But He does not always save them and make them His own children. Therefore He does not always love them in a saving way, or love all men as He loves His own children. So God both loves the sinner and hates the sinner at the same time, but in different ways, in the perfection and 'simplicity' (His divine attribute of not being divided into parts) of His own nature. This is because the sinner is defined by and cannot be separated from his sin. Consider the following verses that show the hate of God for sinners rather than the sin:
The Lord tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence. (Ps 11:5)
But Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.”(Mal 1:3)
Every evil of theirs is in Gilgal; there I began to hate them.Because of the wickedness of their deeds (Hos 9:15)
And you shall not walk in the customs of the nation that I am driving out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I detested them. (Lev 20:23)
You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.(Js 4:4)
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.(Jn 3:36)
The hatred of God has nothing to do with personal vengeance, but with moral repugnance. So this, too, should be the way that we also hate. The Psalmist says,
Oh that you would slay the wicked, O God! O men of blood, depart from me! They speak against you with malicious intent; your enemies take your name in vain. Do I not hate those who hate you, O Lord? And do I not loathe those who rise up against you? I hate them with complete hatred; I count them my enemies. (Ps 139:19-22)
So we both hate and love sinners at the same time, but in different ways - just like God does. Our hate can coexist with pity and a desire for the salvation. Our love can necessitate rebuke and discipline. With sufficient discernment, it is right and good to ask that God execute His righteous judgement on those who will not repent and who oppose Him and His people. I see this pattern in the prayers of the early church (Ac 4:25ff) and in Paul's ministry (Ac 18:6). Jesus tells us not to "“give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you." (Mt 7:6). Certainly there is a point at which we should recognize the unforgivable sin (Mt 12:32, 1 Jn 5:16) that should not be prayed for. Some unbelievers need to be 'accursed' because they do not love the Lord (1 Cor 16:22), which mirrors the imprecatory Psalms (5:10, 10:15, 28:4, 31:17-18, 35:4-6, 58:6-11, 69:22-28, 109:6-15, 139:19-22, 140:9-10).
The trouble is that our sinful nature easily confuses the necessary discernment with vengeance! But we should be cultivating this kind of discernment, since Jesus commands/warns us in this matter. I think a practical approach is always to forgive our personal enemies (those who hurt us). We should pray for their salvation (2 Ti 2:25) and leave vengeance to the Lord (Ro 12:19). But the point may eventually come when we abandon them to their sin.
We then had a brief excursus into the topic of whether it was right to abolish 377/377A in the penal code. Qin mentioned the excellent point that Christians should be talking about holiness as a whole, not only about homosexuality. Winnie mentioned the perspective of Christians seeking the welfare of the city in which we are 'in exile' (Jer 29:7) while our true home city is in heaven (Heb 11:6, 12:22). We should be pointing the citizens of our earthly city to the heavenly one, not with condemnation (Winnie- do feel free to provide the Piper quote!). I have previously discussed the topic here at FTP
It has been noted that if we emphasize on "loving sinners" there is a risk of viewing people with a morally superior attitude (they are "sinners" defined by their sin). So those who hold this view would say that we are never commanded to "love sinners" in the Bible and that this way of viewing people as objects of our love is inappropriate. It has also been noted that in practice it is not easy to love people while hating their sin. I think these observations are not incorrect, but that they are not fundamental considerations in approaching this idea.
Certainly the phrase may seem to separate the sin from the sinner so much that the latter escapes responsibility. We also mentioned Jesus's words about not 'judging' (Mt 7:1). This certainly does not mean that we must not make moral judgements (c.f. v.6), but it means that we do not judge in a condemning fashion, with a hard, ungenerous heart (v.2) and always with a great sensitivity to our own great sinfulness (v.3-5).
"Love the sinner, but hate the sin". does express Scriptural truth insofar as we know that God does love sinners (Ro 5:8) and commands us even to love our enemies (Mt 5:43). There is no doubt that God also hates sin and asks us to hate sin (especially our own). The issue is that we have to consider how God loves sinners and how He asks us to love them. It stands to reason that we should love sinners the way God loves them.
In his little gem of his free ebook here Don Carson helps us to see that God's love is not the same for everyone. So in one sense, God indeed loves sinners, provides for them as a good Creator (Mt 5:45) and desires that they be saved (1 Ti 2:4, 2 Pe 3:9, Ez 18:23, Mt 23:37). But He does not always save them and make them His own children. Therefore He does not always love them in a saving way, or love all men as He loves His own children. So God both loves the sinner and hates the sinner at the same time, but in different ways, in the perfection and 'simplicity' (His divine attribute of not being divided into parts) of His own nature. This is because the sinner is defined by and cannot be separated from his sin. Consider the following verses that show the hate of God for sinners rather than the sin:
There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.(Pr 6:16-19)
The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers.(Ps 5:5)
The Lord tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence. (Ps 11:5)
But Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.”(Mal 1:3)
Every evil of theirs is in Gilgal; there I began to hate them.Because of the wickedness of their deeds (Hos 9:15)
And you shall not walk in the customs of the nation that I am driving out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I detested them. (Lev 20:23)
You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.(Js 4:4)
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.(Jn 3:36)
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.(Rom 1:18)
The hatred of God has nothing to do with personal vengeance, but with moral repugnance. So this, too, should be the way that we also hate. The Psalmist says,
Oh that you would slay the wicked, O God! O men of blood, depart from me! They speak against you with malicious intent; your enemies take your name in vain. Do I not hate those who hate you, O Lord? And do I not loathe those who rise up against you? I hate them with complete hatred; I count them my enemies. (Ps 139:19-22)
So we both hate and love sinners at the same time, but in different ways - just like God does. Our hate can coexist with pity and a desire for the salvation. Our love can necessitate rebuke and discipline. With sufficient discernment, it is right and good to ask that God execute His righteous judgement on those who will not repent and who oppose Him and His people. I see this pattern in the prayers of the early church (Ac 4:25ff) and in Paul's ministry (Ac 18:6). Jesus tells us not to "“give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you." (Mt 7:6). Certainly there is a point at which we should recognize the unforgivable sin (Mt 12:32, 1 Jn 5:16) that should not be prayed for. Some unbelievers need to be 'accursed' because they do not love the Lord (1 Cor 16:22), which mirrors the imprecatory Psalms (5:10, 10:15, 28:4, 31:17-18, 35:4-6, 58:6-11, 69:22-28, 109:6-15, 139:19-22, 140:9-10).
The trouble is that our sinful nature easily confuses the necessary discernment with vengeance! But we should be cultivating this kind of discernment, since Jesus commands/warns us in this matter. I think a practical approach is always to forgive our personal enemies (those who hurt us). We should pray for their salvation (2 Ti 2:25) and leave vengeance to the Lord (Ro 12:19). But the point may eventually come when we abandon them to their sin.
We then had a brief excursus into the topic of whether it was right to abolish 377/377A in the penal code. Qin mentioned the excellent point that Christians should be talking about holiness as a whole, not only about homosexuality. Winnie mentioned the perspective of Christians seeking the welfare of the city in which we are 'in exile' (Jer 29:7) while our true home city is in heaven (Heb 11:6, 12:22). We should be pointing the citizens of our earthly city to the heavenly one, not with condemnation (Winnie- do feel free to provide the Piper quote!). I have previously discussed the topic here at FTP
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