QC and SG accountability (31/8/18)
We considered the question: Could God have created a world without the Fall, with perfectly obedient and happy people, and without consequent suffering?
I said we could break up this question into at least 2 parts:
1. Did God institute of redemption only as a 'Plan B' after the Fall, or was the Fall something He planned from the beginning?
There is clear teaching in Ephesians 1 that we were chosen by the Father in Christ "before the foundation of the world" (v.4). This would indicate that, before the Fall, before anything we could have done, we were already part of God's "plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth." (v. 20). Romans 8 tells us that God foreknew and predestined us for glory (v.29). "Foreknowledge" is sometimes taken to mean "knowing that an individual would make a decision to receive Christ, resulting in predestination to salvation. But "foreknowledge" is perhaps more biblically thought of as the establishment of a saving relationship. (c.f. Amos 3:2 "
“You only have I known of all the families of the earth"). Rev 13:8 tells us that "before the foundation of the world" (again, before the Fall and any work of men), there was a 'book' - the "book of life of the Lamb who was slain". In that book our names were written. The name of the book implies that the slaying of the Lamb was in the mind of God before the foundation of the world. So Jesus' death was determined in eternity past.
2. Why would God choose to allow a Fall and then save at the cost of His Son?
I take Jonathan Edward's insight that in permitting the Fall and then instituting redemption through the Cross, the manifold glories of God are seen in a way that would not have been possible had Man not fallen. Without sin, we would not see the justice, holiness, power, truth and mercy of God in their full manifestation. God does everything for His own glory (and for our good)!
We considered also the possibility that suffering in hell would not be eternal. This is the theological position known as 'annihilationism', of which John Stott was perhaps the most prominent advocate. This however is not the orthodox belief, which clearly teaches eternal conscious suffering (e.g. Mk 9:47, Rev 20:10) We consider that the gravity of an offense is not just in the act, but in the majesty and greatness of the one against whom it is committed. When we sin against God, we sin against the One who is infinitely good and infinitely holy. Infinite punishment is therefore merited, although there are degrees of this infinite punishment (e.g. Mt 11:24).
In punishing, God is still compassionate and unwilling that any should perish (2 Pe 3:9, Ez 18:23), And yet, just as we may have different motivations and considerations in the decisions we take, God also has different motivations and considerations. Of course, with Him, there is no hesitation, because He is perfectly wise and powerful.
Our ideas of God must never be formed based on our own concepts. We must rely of God's revelation of Himself in Scripture. In trying to 'defend' Him and to establish His good character we often go astray in our beliefs. For instance, annihilation seems to preserve the mercy of God, but it then downgrades His holiness. Finally, true knowledge of God must lead us to humble worship. He is the Holy One before whose holiness we have nothing to say for ourselves (Hab 2:20, Is 6:5).. We must bow in awe and adoration.
I said we could break up this question into at least 2 parts:
1. Did God institute of redemption only as a 'Plan B' after the Fall, or was the Fall something He planned from the beginning?
There is clear teaching in Ephesians 1 that we were chosen by the Father in Christ "before the foundation of the world" (v.4). This would indicate that, before the Fall, before anything we could have done, we were already part of God's "plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth." (v. 20). Romans 8 tells us that God foreknew and predestined us for glory (v.29). "Foreknowledge" is sometimes taken to mean "knowing that an individual would make a decision to receive Christ, resulting in predestination to salvation. But "foreknowledge" is perhaps more biblically thought of as the establishment of a saving relationship. (c.f. Amos 3:2 "
“You only have I known of all the families of the earth"). Rev 13:8 tells us that "before the foundation of the world" (again, before the Fall and any work of men), there was a 'book' - the "book of life of the Lamb who was slain". In that book our names were written. The name of the book implies that the slaying of the Lamb was in the mind of God before the foundation of the world. So Jesus' death was determined in eternity past.
2. Why would God choose to allow a Fall and then save at the cost of His Son?
I take Jonathan Edward's insight that in permitting the Fall and then instituting redemption through the Cross, the manifold glories of God are seen in a way that would not have been possible had Man not fallen. Without sin, we would not see the justice, holiness, power, truth and mercy of God in their full manifestation. God does everything for His own glory (and for our good)!
We considered also the possibility that suffering in hell would not be eternal. This is the theological position known as 'annihilationism', of which John Stott was perhaps the most prominent advocate. This however is not the orthodox belief, which clearly teaches eternal conscious suffering (e.g. Mk 9:47, Rev 20:10) We consider that the gravity of an offense is not just in the act, but in the majesty and greatness of the one against whom it is committed. When we sin against God, we sin against the One who is infinitely good and infinitely holy. Infinite punishment is therefore merited, although there are degrees of this infinite punishment (e.g. Mt 11:24).
In punishing, God is still compassionate and unwilling that any should perish (2 Pe 3:9, Ez 18:23), And yet, just as we may have different motivations and considerations in the decisions we take, God also has different motivations and considerations. Of course, with Him, there is no hesitation, because He is perfectly wise and powerful.
Our ideas of God must never be formed based on our own concepts. We must rely of God's revelation of Himself in Scripture. In trying to 'defend' Him and to establish His good character we often go astray in our beliefs. For instance, annihilation seems to preserve the mercy of God, but it then downgrades His holiness. Finally, true knowledge of God must lead us to humble worship. He is the Holy One before whose holiness we have nothing to say for ourselves (Hab 2:20, Is 6:5).. We must bow in awe and adoration.
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